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Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe

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dstannard

Posts: 14
Location: cheshire, uk
Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 13, 2018 - 2:32 PM Quote and reply
With a Class 323 moving to Allerton for the training of Liverpool Lime Street crews ahead of the May 2018 timetable change,the daytime Alderley Edge shuttle diagram which includes the peak hour 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe service switched to Class 319 traction from Monday 12th February.
Initial timings indicate that inter-station run times between Cheadle Hulme and Crewe are typically between 1/4 and 1/2 minute longer than with 323s and that the 319s are only reaching speeds in the low 80s mph where the 323s cruise at the unit limit of 90 mph.
All a foretaste of what is to come when the Class 319s begin more widespread operation on the route.

David Stannard
RPS Committee - Technical
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9102

Posts: 89
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 14, 2018 - 11:49 AM Quote and reply
dstannard said:
With a Class 323 moving to Allerton for the training of Liverpool Lime Street crews ahead of the May 2018 timetable change,the daytime Alderley Edge shuttle diagram which includes the peak hour 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe service switched to Class 319 traction from Monday 12th February.
Initial timings indicate that inter-station run times between Cheadle Hulme and Crewe are typically between 1/4 and 1/2 minute longer than with 323s and that the 319s are only reaching speeds in the low 80s mph where the 323s cruise at the unit limit of 90 mph.
All a foretaste of what is to come when the Class 319s begin more widespread operation on the route.


I have been using GPS to measure acceleration rates of various types of train (which will be offered to Milepost when complete). On level track, Class 319 typically takes over 4 minutes to reach 90 mph. Classes 323 and 350 usually take about 120 - 125 seconds to reach 90 mph.
(BP)



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9102

Posts: 89
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 20, 2018 - 11:44 PM Quote and reply
9102 said:


I have been using GPS to measure acceleration rates of various types of train (which will be offered to Milepost when complete). On level track, Class 319 typically takes over 4 minutes to reach 90 mph. Classes 323 and 350 usually take about 120 - 125 seconds to reach 90 mph.
(BP)



On checking through more data, I have examples of Class 319 reaching the high 80s in about 3 minutes, and 90 mph in about 3.5 minutes. Still inferior to Classes 319 & 350, but better than the 4 minutes reported above,



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26006

Posts: 12
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 22, 2018 - 11:36 AM Quote and reply
The 319's are reasonably fast - but i don't have any recordings of a full 0-100mph.
On a Northbound run from Cricklewood in 2012, a 319 covered the first mile in 85 seconds reaching 69mph. A very recent Class 700 Thameslink 8-car service (4pm and standing room only) did the same mile in only 71 sec and a speed of 80mph. (The 0-60mph on that was a stunning 41 secs). I should hopefully record a decent 0-100mph run soon.

9102 - What GPS are you using to measure acceleration, and which classes of train have you recorded to date?
I have a similar and growing collection of train acceleration statistics recorded using GPS, so it would be interesting to compare these and reconcile the data.
The software I use can create a report on 0-any speed at any increment you wish to use.
Also I can create a report of speed vs distance with distances set to any increment you want - I.E 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 0.1 mile, or down to the foot or metre.
probably it would be important to know which station the acceleration started - in which direction - along with any gradient information.
The more runs we can compare from the same starting point, the more we can analyse good/bad starts, poor traction conditions, engines out etc. EMU's with all wheels powered may be more consistent starting in the wet than say a Class 90 loco hauling or propelling a ten coach rake. Also punctuality has a bearing, as an on time train will likely see drivers use lower power settings and lower top speeds.

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9102

Posts: 89
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 22, 2018 - 10:52 PM Quote and reply
26006 said:


9102 - What GPS are you using to measure acceleration, and which classes of train have you recorded to date?
I have a similar and growing collection of train acceleration statistics recorded using GPS, so it would be interesting to compare these and reconcile the data.
The software I use can create a report on 0-any speed at any increment you wish to use.
Also I can create a report of speed vs distance with distances set to any increment you want - I.E 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 0.1 mile, or down to the foot or metre.
probably it would be important to know which station the acceleration started - in which direction - along with any gradient information.
The more runs we can compare from the same starting point, the more we can analyse good/bad starts, poor traction conditions, engines out etc. EMU's with all wheels powered may be more consistent starting in the wet than say a Class 90 loco hauling or propelling a ten coach rake. Also punctuality has a bearing, as an on time train will likely see drivers use lower power settings and lower top speeds.


I am measuring speed curves using a Garmin GPS76 set to record speeds every 5 seconds - it could record at smaller time intervals, but that fills the memory too quickly. Data are transferred to Excel in a computer, which can also calculate an estimate of distance travelled (although I have not yet had time to examine distance v. time in much detail.)

The speed curves I have examined in most detail are those taken on level (or fairly gentle) gradients at locations where the start is not restricted by low speed limits. Locations are mostly in Northern England or the West Midlands. Available, but not yet examined in detail, are some curves recorded on rising or falling gradients.

Classes include 142, 150, 153, 156, 158, 165*, 166*, 168*, 170*, 175, 180, 185*, 319, 323, 333*, 350, 390, 507, 508. Nothing for Voyager family as I cannot get a consistent GPS signal inside them.

B Price


(* - Only a few suitable runs with these classes.)



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16012FH

Posts: 76
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: February 28, 2018 - 8:23 PM Quote and reply
I spend two weeks every summer in the Czech Republic where I can enjoy windows down in the coaches,fast accelerations and one flying brake application into stations (and superb beer!!)
Anyway last summer I recorded a Flirt 5 car EMU accelerate 0-60 35.4/0-70 44.4/0-80 54.7/0-90 66.0 and then was eased up to line speed of 100mph in 82 secs. I presume a 390 can beat this?
With a Class 323 moving to Allerton for the training of Liverpool Lime Street crews ahead of the May 2018 timetable change,the daytime Alderley Edge shuttle diagram which includes the peak hour 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe service switched to Class 319 traction from Monday 12th February.
Initial timings indicate that inter-station run times between Cheadle Hulme and Crewe are typically between 1/4 and 1/2 minute longer than with 323s and that the 319s are only reaching speeds in the low 80s mph where the 323s cruise at the unit limit of 90 mph.
All a foretaste of what is to come when the Class 319s begin more widespread operation on the route.




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26006

Posts: 12
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: March 1, 2018 - 11:30 AM Quote and reply
Yes, those FLIRT electric multiple units are light, powerful and fast!! I think a Class 395 Javelin would struggle to match that acceleration.
I know a Class 395 will do 0-60mph in 36 or 37 seconds but after that the FLIRT seems too romp away probably due to lower gearing.

I'm reckoning a class 395 can do 0-100mph in around 1 min 45 secs and 0-125mph in 2 min 42 secs.
Class 700's are probably the next fastest. A downhill start saw a 12-car Class 700 achieve 0-90mph in 90 secs, and based on a separate 90-99mph timing of 24 seconds - should yield an approximate 0-100mph time of under 2 mins.

The best 0-100mph time I have recorded for a Class 390 Pendolino is around 2 min 20 seconds. The start seems slower, but they seem to have better mid to high end acceleration.

It will be interesting to see what sort of performance the Greater Anglia specified FLIRT trains deliver! I have not seen any reference to weight or installed power yet.


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9102

Posts: 89
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: March 1, 2018 - 11:44 AM Quote and reply
16012FH said:
I spend two weeks every summer in the Czech Republic where I can enjoy windows down in the coaches,fast accelerations and one flying brake application into stations (and superb beer!!)
Anyway last summer I recorded a Flirt 5 car EMU accelerate 0-60 35.4/0-70 44.4/0-80 54.7/0-90 66.0 and then was eased up to line speed of 100mph in 82 secs. I presume a 390 can beat this?




No. From a standing start, Class 350 can outpace a 390 up to about 60-70 mph. It is only in the higher speed ranges that a 390 demonstrates its superiority.


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16012FH

Posts: 76
Re: Northern Class 319 service working to Crewe - Posted: March 1, 2018 - 2:35 PM Quote and reply
My fault I did mean 395 class not the 390s which I know are quite slow off the start.
While we are talking accelerations when the 68s were working out of Norwich they could do 0-60 in 52 to 54secs with load 185 tons plus passengers.
One DRS Driver did Brundall to Brundall Gdns just under a mile start to stop in 1min 40 secs 64 max and got quite close to that time on other occasions.
Anyway last summer I recorded a Flirt 5 car EMU accelerate 0-60 35.4/0-70 44.4/0-80 54.7/0-90 66.0 and then was eased up to line speed of 100mph in 82 secs. I presume a 390 can beat this?




No. From a standing start, Class 350 can outpace a 390 up to about 60-70 mph. It is only in the higher speed ranges that a 390 demonstrates its superiority.




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